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Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U

Ensuring Fairness: Who Oversees Seller Support Decisions on Compliance and Product Approvals?

Hello Amazon Seller Support Team and Fellow Sellers,

I am writing to see if other sellers have experienced issues with how individual decisions made by seller support representatives are reviewed, particularly in cases related to compliance and product approvals.

We have encountered ongoing inconsistencies in the handling of our ASINs. Despite providing identical, compliant documentation for multiple products, some ASINs have been approved while others continue to face rejection. This suggests that the outcomes may vary based on the individual representative assigned to the case, which raises concerns about fairness and consistency in the decision-making process.

  • Who oversees the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?
  • Is there a process in place to review these decisions and ensure they are unbiased and consistent across all cases?
  • How does Amazon ensures fairness in these decisions, especially for cases involving detailed compliance documentation that should be evaluated consistently.

Kind regards,

487 views
21 replies
Tags:Account Health, Deactivated, Seller Support, Suspended
140
Reply
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U

Ensuring Fairness: Who Oversees Seller Support Decisions on Compliance and Product Approvals?

Hello Amazon Seller Support Team and Fellow Sellers,

I am writing to see if other sellers have experienced issues with how individual decisions made by seller support representatives are reviewed, particularly in cases related to compliance and product approvals.

We have encountered ongoing inconsistencies in the handling of our ASINs. Despite providing identical, compliant documentation for multiple products, some ASINs have been approved while others continue to face rejection. This suggests that the outcomes may vary based on the individual representative assigned to the case, which raises concerns about fairness and consistency in the decision-making process.

  • Who oversees the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?
  • Is there a process in place to review these decisions and ensure they are unbiased and consistent across all cases?
  • How does Amazon ensures fairness in these decisions, especially for cases involving detailed compliance documentation that should be evaluated consistently.

Kind regards,

487 views
21 replies
Tags:Account Health, Deactivated, Seller Support, Suspended
140
Reply
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U
Most helpful replyThis reply was marked most helpful by the original poster.

Hello @SELLC

Thank you for your response, but it seems to have missed the core point of my original query.

The issue isn't about Amazon requiring sellers to have complete and compliant documentation—we are fully aware of these obligations and have gone above and beyond in meeting them. In fact, it often feels as though we are more familiar with the both the regulatory requirements and Amazon’s own guidelines than the team assessing our submissions.

Our concern is not just about the inconsistency between individual seller support representatives, but also about their knowledge of the regulations they are tasked with enforcing. We are not asking for guidance on how to comply with US product regulations—we are fully aware of the documentation required.

We have provided Certification of Conformity (CPC), CPSC-approved lab reports, and all necessary documentation. Yet, despite submitting identical documentation for multiple ASINs, some have been approved while others have been rejected. This inconsistency suggests either a lack of understanding, or variation in how different representatives are interpreting and applying the same standards.

The point of my original question:

Who reviews the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?

What processes are in place to ensure these decisions are consistent, unbiased, and that the regulations are being applied correctly?

How does Amazon regulate and ensure that the individuals reviewing these cases have a thorough understanding of the regulations and that decisions are made fairly and consistently.

Kind regards,

190
21 replies
user profile
Seller_CW0P5hgbsiqWX

The answer to your question comes in two parts.

1. How Amazon thinks:

When you were in High School and turned in an assignment, the teacher would review the work, and return it saying, “X, Y, and Z are missing, go fix it, turn it in again, and it will be correct”.

Now when you are in college and turn in an assignment for review, the instructor returns it and says, “it is not right, do it over”.

Can you see the difference? In High School the student is told what to do. Basically, the student has to use no internal thought process. Now in college, the student is told nothing about how to correct the situation, what may be missing, or what should be omitted. A much high thought process is required to solve the problem. This method Forces deep self-introspection before a second submission is turned in.

It is quite evident that Amazon EXPECTS and REQUIRES the Sellers to show they have given deep thought to the total situation before applying. As you found out, Amazon is not going to tell you the corrections that need to be made.

2. What is takes to sell a product in the USA:

Amazon expects nothing more than all the standard requirements to sell a product in the USA. Your Lability Insurance Company expects the same thing. Product packaging, product labeling, product warning, product UPC, product warranty, product COC, product MSDS, all may be part of the product production.

Amazon is not going to tell you how to develop a product of your own. Amazon expects you have already done everything necessary to have your product sitting on a shelf in any retail store in the USA, before you come to the site to sell.

512
user profile
Seller_vEU5SBow7S3vQ

This is absolutely spot on. I am facing the exact same situation currently. Submitted compliance docs for an ASIN, and after 6 submissions with inconsistent feedback each time regarding what they were looking for, I was finally able to get it approved.

So I used that submission as my template for the next ASIN, which has been rejected pointing to reasons which I know are inaccurate because it was addressed and corrected during my battle with the first ASIN.

What is most frustrating is it took my listing down for 16 days while I went back and forth trying to communicate with support in the text box of each submission. Now I'm trying to get the listing to come back and restore its ranking, which won't be easy.

The whole compliance process/workflow is completely broken and so ridiculously reactive. I tried to find a way to submit compliance documents proactively on my active ASINs so I didn't have to wait and have them flagged and deactivated by Amazon. After 4 phones calls to support, Account Health, and a couple of chat sessions I was told there is no way to do that on active listings. I have to wait for it to be flagged by Amazon and then submit documents. Who does this help & protect? Not the consumer! I could point to hundreds of listings right now that are active on Amazon and are not compliant with CPSA regulations.

Case 16077197431 - approved compliance documents after 6 submissions

Case 16035864781 - same product as above so same testing document as the other case but rejected 3+ times for reasons that were fixed/addressed in first case

70
user profile
Seller_h4btKGmOmHFLr

It is fairly simple. It all depends on the Seller Support Agent that first answers your case. You get one who doesn't know the system and you are on a dark road that is very hard to get off. You will usually not get the same person to follow up on your case and they never review anything that has already transpired. Much wasted time on both sides. But, that is Seller Support.

I haven't had this issue too recently with ASINs. But an example of the ineptness you encounter is our many recent cases concerning a large overstock removal order that many of the shipments were received with damaged units. Some Seller Support automatically refund the correct full value and others refund 20% as damaged packaging. It's a fight to get the full value once that decision is rendered. Each response after that is "This in only a damaged shipping box. The contents are not damaged." They stonewall. But if you are willing to keep escalating the case till they give up or even once they threaten you for keeping the case open, then you have won. My response is then - "Who do I contact at corporate to address being threatened by Seller Support for a case that I believe has not been correctly adjudicated."

Amazon will spend $100 to try to keep from reimbursing $5.

70
user profile
Seller_zinnr9HADdMb2

No offense but good luck!! LOL We spend over 60hrs a month just dealing with Amazon and CS issues. I would rather spend 60hrs a month on developing new products that would make us more $$$ and also Amazon more $$$ but instead we spin our wheels wiht CS again and again...

40
There are no more posts to display
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U

Ensuring Fairness: Who Oversees Seller Support Decisions on Compliance and Product Approvals?

Hello Amazon Seller Support Team and Fellow Sellers,

I am writing to see if other sellers have experienced issues with how individual decisions made by seller support representatives are reviewed, particularly in cases related to compliance and product approvals.

We have encountered ongoing inconsistencies in the handling of our ASINs. Despite providing identical, compliant documentation for multiple products, some ASINs have been approved while others continue to face rejection. This suggests that the outcomes may vary based on the individual representative assigned to the case, which raises concerns about fairness and consistency in the decision-making process.

  • Who oversees the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?
  • Is there a process in place to review these decisions and ensure they are unbiased and consistent across all cases?
  • How does Amazon ensures fairness in these decisions, especially for cases involving detailed compliance documentation that should be evaluated consistently.

Kind regards,

487 views
21 replies
Tags:Account Health, Deactivated, Seller Support, Suspended
140
Reply
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U

Ensuring Fairness: Who Oversees Seller Support Decisions on Compliance and Product Approvals?

Hello Amazon Seller Support Team and Fellow Sellers,

I am writing to see if other sellers have experienced issues with how individual decisions made by seller support representatives are reviewed, particularly in cases related to compliance and product approvals.

We have encountered ongoing inconsistencies in the handling of our ASINs. Despite providing identical, compliant documentation for multiple products, some ASINs have been approved while others continue to face rejection. This suggests that the outcomes may vary based on the individual representative assigned to the case, which raises concerns about fairness and consistency in the decision-making process.

  • Who oversees the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?
  • Is there a process in place to review these decisions and ensure they are unbiased and consistent across all cases?
  • How does Amazon ensures fairness in these decisions, especially for cases involving detailed compliance documentation that should be evaluated consistently.

Kind regards,

487 views
21 replies
Tags:Account Health, Deactivated, Seller Support, Suspended
140
Reply
user profile

Ensuring Fairness: Who Oversees Seller Support Decisions on Compliance and Product Approvals?

by Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U

Hello Amazon Seller Support Team and Fellow Sellers,

I am writing to see if other sellers have experienced issues with how individual decisions made by seller support representatives are reviewed, particularly in cases related to compliance and product approvals.

We have encountered ongoing inconsistencies in the handling of our ASINs. Despite providing identical, compliant documentation for multiple products, some ASINs have been approved while others continue to face rejection. This suggests that the outcomes may vary based on the individual representative assigned to the case, which raises concerns about fairness and consistency in the decision-making process.

  • Who oversees the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?
  • Is there a process in place to review these decisions and ensure they are unbiased and consistent across all cases?
  • How does Amazon ensures fairness in these decisions, especially for cases involving detailed compliance documentation that should be evaluated consistently.

Kind regards,

Tags:Account Health, Deactivated, Seller Support, Suspended
140
487 views
21 replies
Reply
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U
Most helpful replyThis reply was marked most helpful by the original poster.

Hello @SELLC

Thank you for your response, but it seems to have missed the core point of my original query.

The issue isn't about Amazon requiring sellers to have complete and compliant documentation—we are fully aware of these obligations and have gone above and beyond in meeting them. In fact, it often feels as though we are more familiar with the both the regulatory requirements and Amazon’s own guidelines than the team assessing our submissions.

Our concern is not just about the inconsistency between individual seller support representatives, but also about their knowledge of the regulations they are tasked with enforcing. We are not asking for guidance on how to comply with US product regulations—we are fully aware of the documentation required.

We have provided Certification of Conformity (CPC), CPSC-approved lab reports, and all necessary documentation. Yet, despite submitting identical documentation for multiple ASINs, some have been approved while others have been rejected. This inconsistency suggests either a lack of understanding, or variation in how different representatives are interpreting and applying the same standards.

The point of my original question:

Who reviews the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?

What processes are in place to ensure these decisions are consistent, unbiased, and that the regulations are being applied correctly?

How does Amazon regulate and ensure that the individuals reviewing these cases have a thorough understanding of the regulations and that decisions are made fairly and consistently.

Kind regards,

190
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U
Most helpful replyThis reply was marked most helpful by the original poster.

Hello @SELLC

Thank you for your response, but it seems to have missed the core point of my original query.

The issue isn't about Amazon requiring sellers to have complete and compliant documentation—we are fully aware of these obligations and have gone above and beyond in meeting them. In fact, it often feels as though we are more familiar with the both the regulatory requirements and Amazon’s own guidelines than the team assessing our submissions.

Our concern is not just about the inconsistency between individual seller support representatives, but also about their knowledge of the regulations they are tasked with enforcing. We are not asking for guidance on how to comply with US product regulations—we are fully aware of the documentation required.

We have provided Certification of Conformity (CPC), CPSC-approved lab reports, and all necessary documentation. Yet, despite submitting identical documentation for multiple ASINs, some have been approved while others have been rejected. This inconsistency suggests either a lack of understanding, or variation in how different representatives are interpreting and applying the same standards.

The point of my original question:

Who reviews the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?

What processes are in place to ensure these decisions are consistent, unbiased, and that the regulations are being applied correctly?

How does Amazon regulate and ensure that the individuals reviewing these cases have a thorough understanding of the regulations and that decisions are made fairly and consistently.

Kind regards,

190
user profile
Seller_wKVHM8n1YQk8U
Most helpful replyThis reply was marked most helpful by the original poster.

Hello @SELLC

Thank you for your response, but it seems to have missed the core point of my original query.

The issue isn't about Amazon requiring sellers to have complete and compliant documentation—we are fully aware of these obligations and have gone above and beyond in meeting them. In fact, it often feels as though we are more familiar with the both the regulatory requirements and Amazon’s own guidelines than the team assessing our submissions.

Our concern is not just about the inconsistency between individual seller support representatives, but also about their knowledge of the regulations they are tasked with enforcing. We are not asking for guidance on how to comply with US product regulations—we are fully aware of the documentation required.

We have provided Certification of Conformity (CPC), CPSC-approved lab reports, and all necessary documentation. Yet, despite submitting identical documentation for multiple ASINs, some have been approved while others have been rejected. This inconsistency suggests either a lack of understanding, or variation in how different representatives are interpreting and applying the same standards.

The point of my original question:

Who reviews the decisions made by individual seller support representatives?

What processes are in place to ensure these decisions are consistent, unbiased, and that the regulations are being applied correctly?

How does Amazon regulate and ensure that the individuals reviewing these cases have a thorough understanding of the regulations and that decisions are made fairly and consistently.

Kind regards,

190
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Seller_CW0P5hgbsiqWX

The answer to your question comes in two parts.

1. How Amazon thinks:

When you were in High School and turned in an assignment, the teacher would review the work, and return it saying, “X, Y, and Z are missing, go fix it, turn it in again, and it will be correct”.

Now when you are in college and turn in an assignment for review, the instructor returns it and says, “it is not right, do it over”.

Can you see the difference? In High School the student is told what to do. Basically, the student has to use no internal thought process. Now in college, the student is told nothing about how to correct the situation, what may be missing, or what should be omitted. A much high thought process is required to solve the problem. This method Forces deep self-introspection before a second submission is turned in.

It is quite evident that Amazon EXPECTS and REQUIRES the Sellers to show they have given deep thought to the total situation before applying. As you found out, Amazon is not going to tell you the corrections that need to be made.

2. What is takes to sell a product in the USA:

Amazon expects nothing more than all the standard requirements to sell a product in the USA. Your Lability Insurance Company expects the same thing. Product packaging, product labeling, product warning, product UPC, product warranty, product COC, product MSDS, all may be part of the product production.

Amazon is not going to tell you how to develop a product of your own. Amazon expects you have already done everything necessary to have your product sitting on a shelf in any retail store in the USA, before you come to the site to sell.

512
user profile
Seller_vEU5SBow7S3vQ

This is absolutely spot on. I am facing the exact same situation currently. Submitted compliance docs for an ASIN, and after 6 submissions with inconsistent feedback each time regarding what they were looking for, I was finally able to get it approved.

So I used that submission as my template for the next ASIN, which has been rejected pointing to reasons which I know are inaccurate because it was addressed and corrected during my battle with the first ASIN.

What is most frustrating is it took my listing down for 16 days while I went back and forth trying to communicate with support in the text box of each submission. Now I'm trying to get the listing to come back and restore its ranking, which won't be easy.

The whole compliance process/workflow is completely broken and so ridiculously reactive. I tried to find a way to submit compliance documents proactively on my active ASINs so I didn't have to wait and have them flagged and deactivated by Amazon. After 4 phones calls to support, Account Health, and a couple of chat sessions I was told there is no way to do that on active listings. I have to wait for it to be flagged by Amazon and then submit documents. Who does this help & protect? Not the consumer! I could point to hundreds of listings right now that are active on Amazon and are not compliant with CPSA regulations.

Case 16077197431 - approved compliance documents after 6 submissions

Case 16035864781 - same product as above so same testing document as the other case but rejected 3+ times for reasons that were fixed/addressed in first case

70
user profile
Seller_h4btKGmOmHFLr

It is fairly simple. It all depends on the Seller Support Agent that first answers your case. You get one who doesn't know the system and you are on a dark road that is very hard to get off. You will usually not get the same person to follow up on your case and they never review anything that has already transpired. Much wasted time on both sides. But, that is Seller Support.

I haven't had this issue too recently with ASINs. But an example of the ineptness you encounter is our many recent cases concerning a large overstock removal order that many of the shipments were received with damaged units. Some Seller Support automatically refund the correct full value and others refund 20% as damaged packaging. It's a fight to get the full value once that decision is rendered. Each response after that is "This in only a damaged shipping box. The contents are not damaged." They stonewall. But if you are willing to keep escalating the case till they give up or even once they threaten you for keeping the case open, then you have won. My response is then - "Who do I contact at corporate to address being threatened by Seller Support for a case that I believe has not been correctly adjudicated."

Amazon will spend $100 to try to keep from reimbursing $5.

70
user profile
Seller_zinnr9HADdMb2

No offense but good luck!! LOL We spend over 60hrs a month just dealing with Amazon and CS issues. I would rather spend 60hrs a month on developing new products that would make us more $$$ and also Amazon more $$$ but instead we spin our wheels wiht CS again and again...

40
There are no more posts to display
user profile
Seller_CW0P5hgbsiqWX

The answer to your question comes in two parts.

1. How Amazon thinks:

When you were in High School and turned in an assignment, the teacher would review the work, and return it saying, “X, Y, and Z are missing, go fix it, turn it in again, and it will be correct”.

Now when you are in college and turn in an assignment for review, the instructor returns it and says, “it is not right, do it over”.

Can you see the difference? In High School the student is told what to do. Basically, the student has to use no internal thought process. Now in college, the student is told nothing about how to correct the situation, what may be missing, or what should be omitted. A much high thought process is required to solve the problem. This method Forces deep self-introspection before a second submission is turned in.

It is quite evident that Amazon EXPECTS and REQUIRES the Sellers to show they have given deep thought to the total situation before applying. As you found out, Amazon is not going to tell you the corrections that need to be made.

2. What is takes to sell a product in the USA:

Amazon expects nothing more than all the standard requirements to sell a product in the USA. Your Lability Insurance Company expects the same thing. Product packaging, product labeling, product warning, product UPC, product warranty, product COC, product MSDS, all may be part of the product production.

Amazon is not going to tell you how to develop a product of your own. Amazon expects you have already done everything necessary to have your product sitting on a shelf in any retail store in the USA, before you come to the site to sell.

512
user profile
Seller_CW0P5hgbsiqWX

The answer to your question comes in two parts.

1. How Amazon thinks:

When you were in High School and turned in an assignment, the teacher would review the work, and return it saying, “X, Y, and Z are missing, go fix it, turn it in again, and it will be correct”.

Now when you are in college and turn in an assignment for review, the instructor returns it and says, “it is not right, do it over”.

Can you see the difference? In High School the student is told what to do. Basically, the student has to use no internal thought process. Now in college, the student is told nothing about how to correct the situation, what may be missing, or what should be omitted. A much high thought process is required to solve the problem. This method Forces deep self-introspection before a second submission is turned in.

It is quite evident that Amazon EXPECTS and REQUIRES the Sellers to show they have given deep thought to the total situation before applying. As you found out, Amazon is not going to tell you the corrections that need to be made.

2. What is takes to sell a product in the USA:

Amazon expects nothing more than all the standard requirements to sell a product in the USA. Your Lability Insurance Company expects the same thing. Product packaging, product labeling, product warning, product UPC, product warranty, product COC, product MSDS, all may be part of the product production.

Amazon is not going to tell you how to develop a product of your own. Amazon expects you have already done everything necessary to have your product sitting on a shelf in any retail store in the USA, before you come to the site to sell.

512
Reply
user profile
Seller_vEU5SBow7S3vQ

This is absolutely spot on. I am facing the exact same situation currently. Submitted compliance docs for an ASIN, and after 6 submissions with inconsistent feedback each time regarding what they were looking for, I was finally able to get it approved.

So I used that submission as my template for the next ASIN, which has been rejected pointing to reasons which I know are inaccurate because it was addressed and corrected during my battle with the first ASIN.

What is most frustrating is it took my listing down for 16 days while I went back and forth trying to communicate with support in the text box of each submission. Now I'm trying to get the listing to come back and restore its ranking, which won't be easy.

The whole compliance process/workflow is completely broken and so ridiculously reactive. I tried to find a way to submit compliance documents proactively on my active ASINs so I didn't have to wait and have them flagged and deactivated by Amazon. After 4 phones calls to support, Account Health, and a couple of chat sessions I was told there is no way to do that on active listings. I have to wait for it to be flagged by Amazon and then submit documents. Who does this help & protect? Not the consumer! I could point to hundreds of listings right now that are active on Amazon and are not compliant with CPSA regulations.

Case 16077197431 - approved compliance documents after 6 submissions

Case 16035864781 - same product as above so same testing document as the other case but rejected 3+ times for reasons that were fixed/addressed in first case

70
user profile
Seller_vEU5SBow7S3vQ

This is absolutely spot on. I am facing the exact same situation currently. Submitted compliance docs for an ASIN, and after 6 submissions with inconsistent feedback each time regarding what they were looking for, I was finally able to get it approved.

So I used that submission as my template for the next ASIN, which has been rejected pointing to reasons which I know are inaccurate because it was addressed and corrected during my battle with the first ASIN.

What is most frustrating is it took my listing down for 16 days while I went back and forth trying to communicate with support in the text box of each submission. Now I'm trying to get the listing to come back and restore its ranking, which won't be easy.

The whole compliance process/workflow is completely broken and so ridiculously reactive. I tried to find a way to submit compliance documents proactively on my active ASINs so I didn't have to wait and have them flagged and deactivated by Amazon. After 4 phones calls to support, Account Health, and a couple of chat sessions I was told there is no way to do that on active listings. I have to wait for it to be flagged by Amazon and then submit documents. Who does this help & protect? Not the consumer! I could point to hundreds of listings right now that are active on Amazon and are not compliant with CPSA regulations.

Case 16077197431 - approved compliance documents after 6 submissions

Case 16035864781 - same product as above so same testing document as the other case but rejected 3+ times for reasons that were fixed/addressed in first case

70
Reply
user profile
Seller_h4btKGmOmHFLr

It is fairly simple. It all depends on the Seller Support Agent that first answers your case. You get one who doesn't know the system and you are on a dark road that is very hard to get off. You will usually not get the same person to follow up on your case and they never review anything that has already transpired. Much wasted time on both sides. But, that is Seller Support.

I haven't had this issue too recently with ASINs. But an example of the ineptness you encounter is our many recent cases concerning a large overstock removal order that many of the shipments were received with damaged units. Some Seller Support automatically refund the correct full value and others refund 20% as damaged packaging. It's a fight to get the full value once that decision is rendered. Each response after that is "This in only a damaged shipping box. The contents are not damaged." They stonewall. But if you are willing to keep escalating the case till they give up or even once they threaten you for keeping the case open, then you have won. My response is then - "Who do I contact at corporate to address being threatened by Seller Support for a case that I believe has not been correctly adjudicated."

Amazon will spend $100 to try to keep from reimbursing $5.

70
user profile
Seller_h4btKGmOmHFLr

It is fairly simple. It all depends on the Seller Support Agent that first answers your case. You get one who doesn't know the system and you are on a dark road that is very hard to get off. You will usually not get the same person to follow up on your case and they never review anything that has already transpired. Much wasted time on both sides. But, that is Seller Support.

I haven't had this issue too recently with ASINs. But an example of the ineptness you encounter is our many recent cases concerning a large overstock removal order that many of the shipments were received with damaged units. Some Seller Support automatically refund the correct full value and others refund 20% as damaged packaging. It's a fight to get the full value once that decision is rendered. Each response after that is "This in only a damaged shipping box. The contents are not damaged." They stonewall. But if you are willing to keep escalating the case till they give up or even once they threaten you for keeping the case open, then you have won. My response is then - "Who do I contact at corporate to address being threatened by Seller Support for a case that I believe has not been correctly adjudicated."

Amazon will spend $100 to try to keep from reimbursing $5.

70
Reply
user profile
Seller_zinnr9HADdMb2

No offense but good luck!! LOL We spend over 60hrs a month just dealing with Amazon and CS issues. I would rather spend 60hrs a month on developing new products that would make us more $$$ and also Amazon more $$$ but instead we spin our wheels wiht CS again and again...

40
user profile
Seller_zinnr9HADdMb2

No offense but good luck!! LOL We spend over 60hrs a month just dealing with Amazon and CS issues. I would rather spend 60hrs a month on developing new products that would make us more $$$ and also Amazon more $$$ but instead we spin our wheels wiht CS again and again...

40
Reply
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